Sorry P Sac! I posted right after reading the article without reading the other comments!!
Right, the appointment is where they get their "authority" from. Jesus as usual is just a sidebar.
Doubting Bro
JoinedPosts by Doubting Bro
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73
C.O. Jonsson's response to Watchtower's latest 607 articles
by wannabefree inhttp://kristenfrihet.se/vtsvar/vtsvar1.pdf.
(thanks to augustin for bringing this to our attention in another thread.
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73
C.O. Jonsson's response to Watchtower's latest 607 articles
by wannabefree inhttp://kristenfrihet.se/vtsvar/vtsvar1.pdf.
(thanks to augustin for bringing this to our attention in another thread.
).
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Doubting Bro
Very well written and easy to read article. Although I know the WTS to be dishonest, to be so blatantly dishonest is a little stunning. It actually makes me angry that I actually believed this stuff at one point not so long ago. There are lots of reasons to recognize that there is no way the WTS is God's sole channel of communication on earth. False prophesy, lack of love, etc. But, I think this sort of dishonesty and selective quoting is by far the biggest indicator that they have no divine backing.
This is where they always get themselves in trouble. Rather than saying that God revealed this date to them and leave it at that, they try to "prove" it using secular sources and changing a verse in their bible to match their teaching. That someone can deconstruct their argument so thoroughly using the same source they are makes them look much worse. Rather than being misguided, they are shown to be devious.
They know that the 607 date must be defended at all costs. Here's the crazy thing, if you used the real date and pushed their crazy 2520 year theory out another 20 years, that would put Jesus coming to power in 1934 with their "selection" in 1938. Add a 80 year "generation" and you get 2014. I wonder why they didn't do that back in 1995? Instead, they changed the definition 3 of what a generation is 3 times to cover up the obvious.
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73
C.O. Jonsson's response to Watchtower's latest 607 articles
by wannabefree inhttp://kristenfrihet.se/vtsvar/vtsvar1.pdf.
(thanks to augustin for bringing this to our attention in another thread.
).
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Doubting Bro
marking for later
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Victoria, Australia: Here is what JWs didn't do--fill out the "Working With Children" Application Form
by AndersonsInfo inhere is a link to a .pdf version of the working with children (wwc) application form that steven unthank has put on his website.
very important reading material to understand the wwc act and to see the questions asked to those who wanted to comply (or not to comply) with the act.
the download link is: http://workingwithchildrencheck.wordpress.com/.
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Doubting Bro
wbf - sorry for taking your thought. Our postings crossed. I agree with you 100%
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Victoria, Australia: Here is what JWs didn't do--fill out the "Working With Children" Application Form
by AndersonsInfo inhere is a link to a .pdf version of the working with children (wwc) application form that steven unthank has put on his website.
very important reading material to understand the wwc act and to see the questions asked to those who wanted to comply (or not to comply) with the act.
the download link is: http://workingwithchildrencheck.wordpress.com/.
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Doubting Bro
I think his theory is that since all baptized JWs are "ordained ministers" and volunteers who go door to door to preach thus having direct contact with a child (or at least the possiblity of such contact) then everyone who goes in service should apply.
That differs from other religious organizations whose members are not considered "ordained ministers" (WTS own description of baptized JWS) and who do not engage in preaching from door to door.
The most recent instructions I saw was that the WTS wants their elders to comply. It's obvious from the link above that the law clearly applies to them and I could see where it would apply to MS as well since they could be placed in a position of oversight of a child (cleaning the hall, FS groups, etc). I know here in the US, the WTS has argued sucessfully that clergy privilege laws apply to JW elders so I don't see how legally you could say they aren't ministers.
I think having all comply is probably a stretch. They'll likely argue that the rank and file go out strictly on their own accord and have no direct appointment from the WTS.
I can't believe the Legal department hasn't already gotten the WTS to lay off the "ordained ministers" title applying to all JWs. I'll bet if Unthank wins, they'll drop it.
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Doubting Bro
When I joined, I was having questions about the org. I always wondered why "Doubting" Thomas could get away with asking Jesus to prove who he was after the resurrection yet I couldn't ask for the same level of proof from an organization that was supposed to be just a group of God's servants. So, instead of using my real first name (because I'm scared of being outed) I replaced with my KH first name (Bro - brother).
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It's BACK - the 2011 Global Survey of JWs!!
by cedars ini'm pleased to announce that despite some considerable teething troubles (of which many of you will be aware!
), the 2011 survey of jws is back on the road!
there is no need for any donations, so none will be asked for in any way, shape or form.
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Doubting Bro
Here's the thing that's most interesting to me. There is a "spiritually strong" congregation on the surface that is apostate. Granted, you're likely of that mindset if you've found the survey but stunning nonetheless:
94 "active"
9 elders, 17 MS, 9 reg pioneers and even 1 MTS grad
How many congregations would love to have stats like that? Impressive indeed.
What I pull away from this is that there may be a lot more folks like me ("active" but unbelieving) than I think.
Very encouraging brother!!!
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2011 Annual meeting information needed!
by Atlantis inbarbara anderson has already mentioned that she is swamped with emails.
she also needs date information on the 2011 annual meeting.. many thanks!.
nevada.
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Doubting Bro
Jah1914 - Thanks for your confirmation. I tend to discount anything that is mentioned on the 6 screens site but I guess even a blind squirrel finds a nut every so often. Your points are well taken and I agree that it's a savvy move from a monetary sense . Certainly the culture shock has knocked out many a missionary. And not having to take care of these folks once they graduate is a huge point. I can't recall how much they spend in taking care of "special full time servants" but I want to say its just above 100m per year (USD). That's a number they would love to shave down I'm sure. The consolidation of various Bethel branches is another example of trying to get that number to a more managable one.
Question - did your friend indicate whether the WTS is going to be recalling the current missionaries and reassigning them to their home areas? That would be very interesting. Honestly, I don't see how they could not given the turnover rates that are being mentioned. Or perhaps they just slowly close down missionary homes once they lose critical mass in various countries? That way they don't have to announce anything.
Sir82 - I was thinking the same thing. I really think their legal team is trying to figure out how to break the chain of liability before they get hammered. The sexual abuse suit that was settled what 2 years ago or so was likely the tip of the iceberg as far as those go. While the settlement wasn't huge, it caught their attention. You start paying out 800k per person to settle those and it can add up pretty quickly. Obviously nothing like the Catholic Church because they are so much smaller but significant nonetheless.
I do think there's a psychological effect that they haven't considered when deciding to change Gilead and not churn out missionaries. Gilead used to be a point of pride for JWs. Having a special school devoted to producing missionaries while "other religions" sent out folks with much less training (like the LDS). Maybe not, but I just can see this causing a few to wonder that's going on.
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47
2011 Annual meeting information needed!
by Atlantis inbarbara anderson has already mentioned that she is swamped with emails.
she also needs date information on the 2011 annual meeting.. many thanks!.
nevada.
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Doubting Bro
Gayle,
I agree, it's always about the money. But, having missionaries in 3rd world countries bringing in recruits does keep the numbers up and provides encouragement to the rank and file JWs in the mature JW countries where growth is almost at a stand-still.
I saw Terry's post that was cut and pasted from that 6 screens site that mentioned the same thing and I'm now very suspicious that they're making this change at all. If "Johnny the Bethelite" claims it, it must be false!!
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2011 Annual meeting information needed!
by Atlantis inbarbara anderson has already mentioned that she is swamped with emails.
she also needs date information on the 2011 annual meeting.. many thanks!.
nevada.
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Doubting Bro
Wow, this is quite a change. So, if I'm reading this correctly, Gillead will be used not to train missionaries but to have folks provide support to local congregations? Sort of like the MTS was used for? It's really strange because I thought the School for Couples was basically going to be used for that. School for Single Brothers was the direct replacement for MTS right?
I wonder if this is somehow tied to the long rumored replacement of the CO position?
Given the amount of growth from nations where they send Gillead trained missionaries, this makes no sense whatsoever. It almost sounds like they're de-emphasizing the door to door work, but that makes even less sense because DTD is about the only thing JWs are known for (maybe no holidays and possibly no blood are the other things). Plus using it to keep JWs busy and as a guage for "spirituality" is very valuable .
I'm sure the GAM notes will be out soon enough but this is very interesting.